Jono’s Post
First of Two…Part 1- Some definitions & ProofsJustin I appreciate you taking the time to get this going. My name is Jonathan Im also a friend of Batistas. Anthony I give you some credit too.
“YOU CAN’T DEFEND WHAT YOU CAN’T DEFINE”
As Christians we are arguing for something very specific. So we need some working definitions and guidelines as a foundation for the debate.
Truth- “must be logically consistent, empirically adequate, have explanatory power, and be practically relevant.”
In response to the Epistemology question- our evaluation of truth claims adheres to the Revelational Theory that claims “God acts in time and history to reveal Himself”. This theory does value reason and experience.
Rational- theory that says some knowledge is known by reason alone.
Empirical- theory that says all knowledge comes by experience.
Knowledge is True, Justified, Belief.
Faith- is “self abandoning trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.”
“Faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ”. Our faith is in the person and work of Jesus Christ. As Christians we neither claim blind faith nor a faith without reason.
Theology- The study of God. “A Christian theology is an effort to think coherently about the basic beliefs that create a community of faith around the person of JC”.
General revelation could be defined as Gods disclosure of his infinite nature, wisdom, power, wrath, and goodness revealed to everyone that has lived and will ever live by means of common grace in the created order and the moral law which is rooted in the “imago dei”.
Special revelation is God revealing the truth of the Gospel for the redemption of fallen man. (Person and work of Jesus Christ)
Jesus- Is God.
Before we define God we need to point out two things. First, “If your conception of God is radically false, then the more devout you are, the worse it will be for you. You are opening your soul to be molded by something base. You had much better be an atheist.” Second, “If definition means clarifying the boundaries of a thing so that it is placed in a known category and compared to other species, then God cannot be defined.” God is infinite and we are finite. Our definition of him is limited to what he has chosen to reveal of himself to us in word and deed. Much of God is a mystery (if it was not he would cease to be God) such as the starting point of our Theology which is the doctrine of the Trinity. Justin we believe that there is only one God and that is the God of the bible. We are not arguing for any of those definitions. Most important we believe in one God existing in three distinct persons. That is God the father, Jesus, and the Spirit. The trinity is like nothing else and therefore stands alone as the sole example of itself. Any analogy we would come up with does not work and is not adequate. So here are some definitions we can work with.
God- ”the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who is manifested to the prophets according to the Father’s dispensation; through whom all things were made; who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconciliation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied.. Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth.”
God -Giving life to all life God is a necessary being and vital first cause.
God has revealed himself as the divine person in saying “I AM”.
“His attributes include infinity, incomprehensibility, immutability, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, simplicity, eternity, spirituality, holiness, truth, wisdom, goodness, love, righteousness, unity, immensity, fidelity, mercy, self sufficiency, indivisibility, immeasurability, personality, congruence, glory, blessedness, and freedom.”
Proofs for God: Limitations: “There are counter arguments for each proof, human reason is finite (were working up hill), and they fail to prove the existence of an all-powerful, personal, benevolent God.”
-“All people possess a moral impulse. -Since this morality is not always rewarded in this life, there must be some basis or reason for moral behavior that is beyond this life.-This implies the existence of immortality, ultimate judgment, and a God who rewards good and punishes evil.” The fact that we all have a conscience that argues to what we ought to do. Moral Law equals Moral Law Giver..
-“There is an observable order/design in the world. -Order/design cannot be attributed to the object itself.-Therefore, an intelligent being created this order/design.
Every effect has a cause. -There cannot be an infinite regress of finite causes. Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause or necessary being.” Something cant come from nothing.
-“Man has an idea of an infinite and perfect being. -Existence is a necessary part of perfection. -Therefore, an infinite and perfect being exists, since the very concept of perfection requires existence.”
Justin what does your worldview claim in answering the four questions in the Ravi Clip Anthony posted. Origin, meaning, morality, destiny?
Although not religion it does take faith for you to be an Atheist. “People with faith that God does not exist believe without any proof. They take their chances on Him not existing in hopes that he does not exist. I have not heard any proof for the absence of God( if there was we wouldn’t need faith to disbelieve He existed.) Therefore there is a God.”- The reverse of your logical outworking.
Your argument that you have not heard any good proof does not follow that logically there is no God. The definition of faith given is not a definition I would accept as a part of the Christian Faith. As Christians we believe there is ample evidence for the existence of God indeed the very breath you use to claim he does not exist. For me to have faith in God I believe and trust in Jesus. Not just because… not faith without good reason. I would not put my faith in anyone. True, Justifed, belief. Not just belief
1 year ago