Hey Justin check this out. This speaks to parallel issues we’ve discussed several time.
3 years agoFirst of Two…Part 1- Some definitions & ProofsJustin I appreciate you taking the time to get this going. My name is Jonathan Im also a friend of Batistas. Anthony I give you some credit too.
“YOU CAN’T DEFEND WHAT YOU CAN’T DEFINE”
As Christians we are arguing for something very specific. So we need some working definitions and guidelines as a foundation for the debate.
Truth- “must be logically consistent, empirically adequate, have explanatory power, and be practically relevant.”
In response to the Epistemology question- our evaluation of truth claims adheres to the Revelational Theory that claims “God acts in time and history to reveal Himself”. This theory does value reason and experience.
Rational- theory that says some knowledge is known by reason alone.
Empirical- theory that says all knowledge comes by experience.
Knowledge is True, Justified, Belief.
Faith- is “self abandoning trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.”
“Faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ”. Our faith is in the person and work of Jesus Christ. As Christians we neither claim blind faith nor a faith without reason.
Theology- The study of God. “A Christian theology is an effort to think coherently about the basic beliefs that create a community of faith around the person of JC”.
General revelation could be defined as Gods disclosure of his infinite nature, wisdom, power, wrath, and goodness revealed to everyone that has lived and will ever live by means of common grace in the created order and the moral law which is rooted in the “imago dei”.
Special revelation is God revealing the truth of the Gospel for the redemption of fallen man. (Person and work of Jesus Christ)
Jesus- Is God.
Before we define God we need to point out two things. First, “If your conception of God is radically false, then the more devout you are, the worse it will be for you. You are opening your soul to be molded by something base. You had much better be an atheist.” Second, “If definition means clarifying the boundaries of a thing so that it is placed in a known category and compared to other species, then God cannot be defined.” God is infinite and we are finite. Our definition of him is limited to what he has chosen to reveal of himself to us in word and deed. Much of God is a mystery (if it was not he would cease to be God) such as the starting point of our Theology which is the doctrine of the Trinity. Justin we believe that there is only one God and that is the God of the bible. We are not arguing for any of those definitions. Most important we believe in one God existing in three distinct persons. That is God the father, Jesus, and the Spirit. The trinity is like nothing else and therefore stands alone as the sole example of itself. Any analogy we would come up with does not work and is not adequate. So here are some definitions we can work with.
God- ”the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point of our faith. The second point is this: the Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who is manifested to the prophets according to the Father’s dispensation; through whom all things were made; who also, at the end of the age, to complete and gather up all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible, in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce perfect reconciliation between God and man. And the third point is: the Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied.. Who at the end of the age was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth.”
God -Giving life to all life God is a necessary being and vital first cause.
God has revealed himself as the divine person in saying “I AM”.
“His attributes include infinity, incomprehensibility, immutability, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, simplicity, eternity, spirituality, holiness, truth, wisdom, goodness, love, righteousness, unity, immensity, fidelity, mercy, self sufficiency, indivisibility, immeasurability, personality, congruence, glory, blessedness, and freedom.”
Proofs for God: Limitations: “There are counter arguments for each proof, human reason is finite (were working up hill), and they fail to prove the existence of an all-powerful, personal, benevolent God.”
-“All people possess a moral impulse. -Since this morality is not always rewarded in this life, there must be some basis or reason for moral behavior that is beyond this life.-This implies the existence of immortality, ultimate judgment, and a God who rewards good and punishes evil.” The fact that we all have a conscience that argues to what we ought to do. Moral Law equals Moral Law Giver..
-“There is an observable order/design in the world. -Order/design cannot be attributed to the object itself.-Therefore, an intelligent being created this order/design.
Every effect has a cause. -There cannot be an infinite regress of finite causes. Therefore, there must be an uncaused cause or necessary being.” Something cant come from nothing.
-“Man has an idea of an infinite and perfect being. -Existence is a necessary part of perfection. -Therefore, an infinite and perfect being exists, since the very concept of perfection requires existence.”
Justin what does your worldview claim in answering the four questions in the Ravi Clip Anthony posted. Origin, meaning, morality, destiny?
Although not religion it does take faith for you to be an Atheist. “People with faith that God does not exist believe without any proof. They take their chances on Him not existing in hopes that he does not exist. I have not heard any proof for the absence of God( if there was we wouldn’t need faith to disbelieve He existed.) Therefore there is a God.”- The reverse of your logical outworking.
Your argument that you have not heard any good proof does not follow that logically there is no God. The definition of faith given is not a definition I would accept as a part of the Christian Faith. As Christians we believe there is ample evidence for the existence of God indeed the very breath you use to claim he does not exist. For me to have faith in God I believe and trust in Jesus. Not just because… not faith without good reason. I would not put my faith in anyone. True, Justifed, belief. Not just belief
3 years agoWhats up guys! I am not much of a blogger but my bro gave me this blog and said it is a good discussion. I have a question for both you. Anytime anyone debates the existence of God, you are inevitebly engaging in a discussion about epistemology (the nature and conditions of knowledge, ie. how we know what we know). So besides bare claims on both sides, I was wondering first IF both of you claim to have knowledge of your position and if you do, by what means to you use to come to your conclusions. Justin, what method did you use to come to your conclusion that “There is no God”, and Anthony, what method did you use to come to your conclusion that there is one?
Church. To be more exact churches. I have been to and a part of many growing up. Most of which were on my own. When I was little I went to a Christian Scientist church. My dad’s side of the family is Christian Scientist and I would go to Sunday school with my aunt and uncle ( my age… long story ) and my step grandmother ( part of the long story ) would lead all the kids in prayer etc. It is similar to what I am sure most little kids do in church. We learned bible stories etc. One of the most prominent aspects of being a Christian Scientist is that you don’t go to the doctor. No doctor, no dentist, no emergency room, nothing. When my father was young he and his brother were hit by a car. My father was flipped on to the sidewalk and cracked his head open. Now the “normal” way to handle this sort of thing would be to call for an ambulance and send the injured folk to an emergency room. Instead my father was taken home and his parents called over a practitioner and together they prayed over my fathers head. According to legend the next day my father was all better and wanted to go to school. Well fuck me sideways! What a miracle! For some reason though my father was never into church or being religious. I have always gone to the doctor. This is perhaps the earliest time in my life where I questioned religion. Why not go to the doctor? I’m fine.
For many years growing up I didn’t live near the church so I didn’t go. The only time religion was brought up was at christmas when we prayed over glazed ham. In 7th grade I was introduced to a Lutheran confimation class. It was run by my new step mothers step father who was the pastor of a nearby church. I went to church every Sunday and to Youth Group every week for the next 6 years. The people were great people. My step… step grandfather is a great pastor. Nothing showed me a God.
Time and experience has shown how fickle belief in God is. The only logical conclusion to draw is that there is no God.
Justin
Justin,
I’m a friend of our good man Anthony. My name is Eric and I’m glad that you two gentlemen are doing this. We need more people in the world who are willing to discuss and debate in a respectful fashion. So… onto my first comment. I’m going to have to call you out, Justin. By definition, in order to have an argument, you actually have to have support, in addition to your claim. So… at this point, things actually haven’t been kicked off. “There is no God” is only a claim. Please throw some support our way. Enjoy your day.
Hey Eric! Glad to see your interest in the topic. As your post proves my initial post did it’s job in provoking a reaction ;). It was meant to get Anthony’s ass signed up so we could start discussion. That being said, let me give a little more detailed on my stance.
There is no God.
Here is the definition of God from dictionary.com:
God:
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. (lowercase
) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. (often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6. (lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.
One of these definitions could fit for any religion and as such my assertion is:
There is no ( 1 - 7 ).
Nothing points to the existence of a supreme being. Nothing points to a supreme being that is in anyway interested in the daily affairs of humanity. We have through out time made things up in order to fill in the gaps in the understanding of our surroundings. For example when we are a child we are scared of dark and our brains come up with ways of rationalizing that fear in the form of things like the boogey man. It is the light that shows us that there was nothing in our closet to fear. Eventually we grow out of believing in things like the boogey man because he never shows up. We get a better understanding of our environment and the idea of the boogey man becomes something laughable.
There is no evidence of a supreme being other than what can also be explained by non-supernatural reasons. There have been many religions before the ones that preside today and if we were to look at the evidence for their God we would all take pitty on their pointless rituals and superstitions. Ra hasn’t stopped shining the Suns light on the earth because we ceased to pray to him. Zeus’ lighting bolts don’t chase us around due to a lack of goat carcases at the base of Mt Olympus. Jesus hasn’t come back despite how badly people want him to. There is good rational explanation for these things yet religious folk through out time have found reasons to have faith.
Faith:
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
People with faith in God believe that he exists with out any proof. They take their chances on Him existing in the hopes of eternal salvation… I have not heard of any proof for God ( if there was we wouldn’t need faith ) therefore there is no God. There is no ( 1-7 ).
Justin
3 years agoThere is no God?
First question: What is it you are denying
When you refute one world view you are adopting another. What view are you adopting?
Love,
Anthony
3 years ago